12 Questions With Carrie Harris, Director of Sustainability at British Airways

How British Airways is pioneering the path to net zero through innovation, and creating a blueprint for aviation's sustainable future.

12 Questions is our new podcast series exploring how global leaders are driving sustainability through innovation.

In this incredibly insightful, in-depth discussion, Carrie Harris, Director of Sustainability at British Airways sits down with Twelve's CEO Nicholas Flanders to discuss how British Airways, with the help of parent company International Airlines Group (IAG), is pioneering the path to net zero: the challenges, opportunities and successes so far, and why this decade is the time to act on climate.

The following transcript has been lightly edited for length and clarity:

Nicholas: Hi, Carrie. Good morning. 

Carrie: Good morning, Nicholas. Lovely to be here. Good to see you. 

Nicholas: Good to see you in New York. 

Nicholas: What are you hoping to get out of being here in New York during Climate Week? 

Carrie: Well, lots of things. On Monday, we hosted a dinner at Goals House, which, was a huge success and really gave us an opportunity to talk about some of the recent work that we've been doing both internally and externally on carbon removals purchase. So that was Monday evening. And aside from that, it's just the normal frenzy of New York Climate Week, which is incredible, frenetic, but always so inspiring. So we've been really, really busy, but got a lot to take away from it. 

Nicholas: Any any kind of evolution you've seen over the years that this has been happening? Any difference between what you're feeling this year versus last year? 

Carrie: What I take from it is just huge encouragement at the scale of the mobilization of people from all types of backgrounds, all ages, all sectors— all working towards fixing the climate, which is what we want to see. So it's for that reason, I just find it super energizing, and it's always so innovative. There's so many ideas to take away, and you hear many perspectives. Normally for me, I'm working in aviation, so its great to hear from people in other sectors talking about the work that they're doing.

I think the other thing that really stood out for me is just the how well-informed and how mobilized and organized young people are. I've been listening to lots of people in their late teens and twenties at Solutions House talking about the action that they're already taking and their ideas for the future, and I just think, wow, that is amazing. You know, wish I had that kind of influence at that age. That's incredible.

The sessions I listened to, for example, were about green jobs and how they can access the green jobs market. We actually do that internally in British Airways, we have a big recruitment program for apprentices. 

And so they're coming in, many of them straight from school or just post degree, so between 18 and early twenties. So we do already kind of have that influx, and it's always great hearing their perspectives. We have three apprentices working in the sustainability team right now at BA. So that keeps us on our toes!

Nicholas: Great! I definitely to talk more about sustainable aviation and British Airways's approach. I'd love to start with you though, what drew you to sustainability initially? 

Carrie: Well, right back from being a kid, basically, just inspired by my parents. You know, just I've got this innate respect for nature— awe at the beauty of the world, the wonder of our planet. And that was instilled in me from an early age from looking after a garden, going out in the Scottish hillsides, really appreciating the scale of the world and how small a part we are of that, but also just appreciating nature for all its beauty. And so that's kind of an innate part of me. I kind of didn't really contrive it, but sort of realized after about 10 years in aviation that it wasn't that much of a coincidence that I ended up in aviation because my dad was also an aviation fanatic, so I grew up going to the flying club for socials. We had air traffic control radio tuned in in our in our house, which is actually a bit odd when I reflect on it now, but that was just my normal environment. 

It feels like I'm in a job that I'm deeply passionate about in an industry that I love. I love travel, I love aviation for what it offers the world, and for its incredible complexity of engineering— the whole feat of getting an aircraft from point a to b. I'm really deeply driven to do what I do and love seeing that we're making progress now. 

Nicholas: Love that. The intersection of nature and aviation sounds like that was a source of inspiration from the beginning. Can you talk a bit more about that, about innovation and how it relates to sustainability in particular, within British Airways' transformation? 

Carrie: So I think aviation, by its very nature, is an innovative industry. It's constantly evolved over time and improved. It's got extremely high standards of safety, that's come through innovation, extreme efficiency improvements that have been delivered over many decades. 

So it's constant, fast evolution, I would say. And sustainability kind of pushes that right to the extreme. It needs more of that innovation and, actually, to the extent that so much has grown up on a system based on fossil fuels, to now decouple that is a huge challenge. I mean, it's so profound because that's the whole energy system that aviation is based on. So the scale of the challenge is absolutely enormous, but because of that, it's also very exciting and a massive opportunity for the planet. 

Innovation's ingrained in all that we do. The way we approach it at British Airways multifaceted, so we work really closely with the team at our parent company, International Airlines Group, who have a startup accelerator program called Hangar 51. They have a venture capital arm, and we work really closely with them in putting the call out to start-ups, looking for innovative ideas on how we can be more sustainable. You know, they were the team initially that found you! And then also within our team, we've got a business transformation program with $9,000,000,000 of investment in the business over a three year period to transform the whole of the business from customer service to operational efficiency, and sustainability. So we're constantly challenging ourselves to evolve, innovate, find new ways of doing things, and tackle some of the big challenges like how we decarbonize aviation. 

Nicholas: Can you talk a bit about that roadmap you mentioned? How to get the aviation sector from a to b, to decarbonize in pursuit of net zero?

Carrie: So we set out our roadmap to net zero in 2019. We were part of IAG in being the first global airline to set our pathway to net zero. 

And if I simplify it, our pathway for British Airways has essentially three main wedges for getting from where we are now to net zero by 2050 or sooner:

So the first wedge of emissions reductions really comes from investing in new, more efficient aircraft that are up to about 35% more fuel efficient than the aircraft they replace. It's also about operational efficiency and making sure we use and fly the aircraft that we have as as efficiently as possible. And then there's a small element of looking towards future aircraft like hydrogen propulsion. 

Then the second wedge in our path to net zero, the second third really will come from sustainable aviation fuel, and that we're hoping to get to 10% by 2030, and then basically SAF, sustainable aviation fuel, will fulfill about 50% of our total fuel needs by 2050. Hopefully more, but that's the current trajectory. 

And then the final third of our path to net zero will come from carbon removals, and that's really what we were in New York talking about earlier this week, our first major investment and purchase of carbon removals. A tiny industry at the moment, smaller than sustainable aviation fuels, so both the SAF and the carbon removals are at early stages and need to scale significantly over the next 2 to 3 decades, so that's what we're trying to influence. 

Nicholas: And congratulations on that. I think it's another example of BA really pushing, the industry forward. And so on that point, what advice would you have? In my experience talking to airlines, there's a really wide range of where companies are at in their SAF journey. From trying to understand how to get involved, to what types of sustainable aviation fuel to use. What advice would you have to an airline who's looking to make advancements in sustainable aviation fuel as a strategy? 

Carrie: I don't know how to advise others, all I can reflect on is what we've been able to do. For IAG and British Airways, this has been a long path to get where we are now. Thanks to the team at IAG— Lee Hudson, Jim Davies, Jonathan Counsel— they were pioneering in this space 15 years ago, trying to get the policy framework in place to support R&D into SAF. They were early offtake purchasers and equity investors in some of the innovative platforms, including LanzaTech, LanzaJET. So I suppose what's worked well there is recognizing that we have a strong demand and trying to influence the policy framework and the supply of sustainable aviation fuel, and I suppose now we're seeing that that early action is starting to pay off because, we're on track to get to our 10% SAF by 2030. You know, when they set out on this, it wasn't even proven whether SAF was feasible. It had never been tested in operation.

And now within British Airways, we've been operating SAF routinely, for over 3 years now. It comes in the pipeline from Phillips 66 in the UK straight into Heathrow. So anyone who's flown with us out of Heathrow in the last three years is operating with a tiny portion of sustainable aviation fuel, and that's just continuing to scale. So for other airlines? Get into this game! Help us build that global supply chain, that we desperately need to scale as soon as possible.

It's exciting now because now we've proven that first, second, and third generation SAF can be produced, and is safe to operate. So now it is really just about scaling, which is a big challenge, but surely that's easier to do than actually invent a whole new technology. So we've got that done, and it'd be great to just call on other airlines to work with us and help do that scaling. 

Nicholas: And, you know, there's a number of different kinds of sustainable aviation fuels from biofuels to e-fuels. Can you talk more about the latest generation e-fuels and how you think about those as part of a SAF and where you see it going in the future? 

Carrie: So if you look at 1st generation in the Phillips 66 supply that I mentioned, from the UK, that's used cooking oil. So that's kind of what is classed as 1st generation SAF. Second generation SAF would typically be alcohol-to-jet fuel. And then eSAF, which is of course Twelve's speciality, is essentially capturing carbon from the atmosphere or recycling carbon into aviation fuel. And for us, that really is the holy grail. That's where we really want to get to because if we do that and if we achieve that, it's essentially a closed loop system. So we're then emitting, CO2, as we burn the fuel in our aircraft, but then capturing that equivalent volume of CO2 and reprocessing that into fuel. That becomes a closed loop system, so then there's no net new CO2 emissions, and that's where we want to get to for aviation to get to net zero. 

You're the specialist in that, and we look to you and seeing that innovation come through. You know, I just described how 10 years ago, we didn't have these fuels available, and even 2 years ago, eSAF was not available. So it's super exciting that IAG and British Airways have done this deal with you, a fourteen year long term offtake agreement. And I think in terms of the innovation and the signal to the market, these types of big strategic structural deals are vitally important because it's sending that demand signal that you you can then show to your investors to help raise the funds to build the infrastructure that's needed to deliver SAF at scale. It helps us all kind of line up the supply chain that's needed. 

Nicholas: And I would underscore that. We talk a lot about innovation and often the mind goes to technology. But, actually, there's a lot of innovation that's been needed in terms of a business models for SAF. To sign a long term, multi-year offtake for SAF for future supply, that's a very different buying behavior than for normal fossil jet fuel. What did it take at the group level to be able to transform the purchasing behavior? 

Carrie: A long time, in terms of building understanding and engagement and awareness. And, you know, again, credit the IAG team who have done that there because our fuel purchasing is done at group level. They had build that path so that people understood why this was strategically important and why we would be committing to purchase this type of fuel fourteen years ahead rather than just spot purchase what's in the market.

So, credit to them for setting out the need, and I suppose it goes back to having that pathway that we set out in 2019 that laid the groundwork for that. Everyone clearly understood the three main steps that we had to take to get there, and SAF is clearly identified as one of those.

Nicholas: There's also airline customers, there's individual travelers, and there's also the large corporate buyers of travel for their employee travel. What role do you see that latter group playing in terms of corporate travel purchasers in pushing SAF forward? 

Carrie: Really positive, actually. We've had a lot of engagement with our corporate customers. As part of our BA Better World sustainability program, we're keen to engage with our customers and also see we have a responsibility to inform them, build awareness, and help educate them as well as give them options on how they can be part of our path to net zero. We've done that partly through SAF through offering the opportunity to purchase SAF and scope 3 credits for our customers. 

For many of them, this is really crucial to their own path to net zero because for their scope 3 emissions, if they rely on flying for their business, then they need to find a way to address it. At the moment, SAF is the only option to do that. So we've done a number of, major deals with some of our key customers where they've been purchasing SAF. And that helps make the business case to invest in more SAF and helps accelerate the whole thing. So I think corporate travelers have got a big role to play in this and we'd really encourage those who aren't yet engaging in this to look at the options there for how they can get involved.

Nicholas: They can really help to push the industry forward. So you've got The Most Important Journey Yet campaign, can you talk a bit more about that? What are you looking to communicate through that? And, you know, at Twelve, we've been talking about Fuel for the Long Haul. And do you see any areas of intersection between our messaging? 

Carrie:

So, the first you mentioned there, BA Better World, is our sustainability program in British Airways, and that covers people, planet, responsible business. 

So it's a very, broad, program, but our strap line for it is “Welcome on board our most important journey yet.” And the reason it's that is because it is our most important journey yet because of what's at stake— the future well-being of the planet as well as the future well-being of our business. So it's super important for us that we find a way to solve this. It's also crucial for all of our stakeholders, whether that's investors, our colleagues that work at British Airways, our customers, and the planet itself. So vitally important, and it obviously completely aligns with E-Jet®'s Fuel for the Long Haul campaign, which has got a similar ambition of trying to tackle the areas of current climate impact and deal with that, and it's also nodding to the fact that it's it's, no quick fix overnight.

You know, both of these programs are recognizing that this is going to take, major systemic change to to get the pivot that we need to de-fossilize aviation. So both are well aligned on that point. 

Nicholas: It's a journey, and it's gonna take everyone. Can you talk about your vision for the future of aviation and air travel? And pick a date in the future. What comes to mind? 

Carrie: That's the hard part, picking the date. I suppose the thing that motivates me, and going back to the why I'm in this at the start, the thing that motivates me is having an industry that still enables people to enjoy all the wonders of air travel––that ability to see the world and connect with people, loved ones ––that really is the beauty of aviation. But to do so in a way that doesn't have the environmental impact that it currently has is the key thing, and that's what I'd like to see for the future. I always keep saying to my team and to others: I really want to get this fixed before I retire. This is gonna be a very, very long career, and I'd like to retire at some point. 

We've got to go on this quickly. I think the good news is that even in the last few years, we're starting to, for the first time, see that separation. We're seeing a reduction in our carbon intensity even though growth has recovered year on year to pre-pandemic levels. Our emissions are not going up at the same rate, and that's the first time that we started to see that separation, and that's in a large part due to us starting to take SAF into our supply. By the end of this year, we'll have almost 2% of our fuel use coming from SAF, and along with investments in more efficient aircraft, and in our day to day operational efficiencies, those things are now having a tangible effect, and that's really encouraging to see.

So, wow, I mean, that is an amazing pivot already and very encouraging, and we just need to keep doing more. 

Nicholas: That's exciting. So, to wrap, talk me through a day in your life. What are you doing with the team and what are some things that people might, not expect? 

Carrie: It's so varied, honestly. Like, you know, amazing perks, like being here at New York Climate Week where it's just so energizing. We met earlier this year in New York where we were doing our BA showcase to demonstrate the transformation that's going on in the business, and and events like that and that opportunity to travel and meet people around the world and talk about innovation is, for me, you know, one of the main highlights of the role. I absolutely love it. 

But, of course, there's so much else that goes on that is so often unseen. I'm always saying to my team: thank you so much, because it’s like that kind of iceberg analogy where the bits you see on the surface are a tiny fraction of the work that's going on. On the team we've got people that are doing compliance, monitoring, reporting, auditing, all that groundwork, which is fundamental to be able to drive the strategy forward, and is often just unsung, but it's absolutely crucial. We've been doing a lot of work over the last three years to improve all of that, to get our environmental management system certified and to work with teams across the business from engineering to cabin crew, to improve their processes. So there's a huge amount of work that goes on within the team, but also across the whole business of BA in every area. 

The team is absolutely amazing. I think one of the things that really shows me we're working best as a team is when we hold big big events. Just last week, we celebrated the 3rd anniversary of BA Better World. We had a big colleague awards event to celebrate all the people across the business that have been helping us make improvements. We also launched a new colleague campaign for climate action between now and 2030. 

So, our current message to our people is, yes, we've got all these plans for the long-term to 2050, but this decade is absolutely critical for acting on climate. We need to put everything in place this decade to make sure that we're on track to 2050.

Just last week, we launched this new climate action campaign and also launched a new colleague learning program that's going help our people understand the part that they can play. The whole sustainability team, how they work together to develop that program over months, all the content for that and working with others across the business— cabin crew, pilots, engineers, our communications team, etc, was just amazing to see. That progress and the energy that comes from it is great. 

Nicholas: That's great to hear. I mean, it really is, it's a whole movement. And one thing we talk about at Twelve a lot is momentum as you're talking about. You've gotta put things in place this decade for the next decade, when you start talking about planetary level impact. You've gotta get that snowball rolling and growing. So that's exciting to hear how you're motivating the team internally toward these timelines and towards these big goals. 

So what's one question that you wish you got asked more often? 

Carrie: So I was reflecting on this, and actually this was the hardest question, I think, to answer. But in the end, I wish people were saying to me: “tell me about the amazing success story of how quickly aviation is decarbonized.” 

And, essentially, that's the question I want to be asked in future. I just hope that is a question that either myself or my successors can be asked in future. “Tell us about this incredible success story. How did aviation manage to decarbonize so quickly?” That would be great. 

Nicholas: I love that vision. Well, Carrie, we so value our partnership with you. Thanks for spending the time with us. This has been really fun. 

Carrie: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Cheers.

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